We’re back with our latest episode of the Sunny Side Up Nutrition Podcast. In this week’s episode of the podcast Anna and I dive into the roles parents don’t need to take on (like controlling weight or forcing kids to clean their plates) and the roles that are necessary for raising confident eaters. We talk about Ellyn Satter’s Division of Responsibility, how it can be a helpful structure to use with responsive feeding, and our own Sunny Side Up Feeding Framework that helps parents understand and succeed in their roles in the feeding relationship.
What’s in the episode
Parents are bombarded with messages about controlling their child's eating.
It's not a parent's job to control a child's weight or what they eat.
The Satter’s Division of Responsibility in Feeding outlines some roles for parents and children.
Responsive Feeding tailors the feeding approach to each child's needs.
The importance of creating a peaceful mealtime.
What do parents need to feel grounded and calm before mealtimes.
The importance of modeling a healthy relationship with food.
There’s no one-size-fits-all approach to feeding children.
The Sunny Side Up framework helps simplify feeding
Relevant links
Ellyn Satter Institute: Division of Responsibility in Feeding
Learn more about our membership: Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding
Transcript
Elizabeth (00:43)
Hi, Anna.
Anna (00:44)
HI, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth (00:46)
Excited for us to be here to chat about your role in feeding, which is another topic in our Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding membership. And we've touched on some of these topics throughout our other podcast episodes, but this time we'll go a little more in-depth about them.
So let's jump in and just start with, what are the messages that parents get about what their jobs are when it comes to feeding?
Anna (01:15)
I feel like we are, as parents, bombarded with messages that to be a quote-unquote good parent, we should get our child to eat lots of fruits and vegetables. We should make sure they're not eating too much, but also make sure they're not eating too little. I think parents get the message that they have complete control over their child's body size and body shape. Those are the big ones that come into my mind.
Elizabeth (01:47)
Yeah, those are the big ones. I agree. Those are the ones that are hammered home. And, you know, they're hammered home in different ways, right? But those are the biggies. So, let's start with what are not a parent's role.
Anna (02:04)
Yeah, I think that's a good way to frame this discussion—to be really clear that it is not a parent's job to control a child's weight. Children are supposed to be gaining and growing. Weight and body size are, in big part, determined by genetics. So maybe that's the only little piece that parents have—the piece that parents have in it is the genetic piece.
Elizabeth (02:28)
Right, and they don't have any control over that!
Anna (02:30)
Exactly. But if a parent feels that it is their job to control specifically their child's weight, that can lead to pressure and restriction in the feeding relationship. The child's body size is going to be what it is given that child's genetics, temperament, activity, propensity to movement, and propensity to eat a variety of foods. We can get into all that.
It's not the job of the parent to control a child's weight. Another one is it's not your job to make your child eat a certain item. You're not a good parent or a bad parent if they eat their green beans or not.
Elizabeth (03:07)
Right.
Anna (03:08)
So really, take that role off of you. You can support them. And we can get into that, but it's not your job to make them eat it.
Elizabeth (03:16)
It just ends in a struggle, really.
Anna (03:19)
That reminds me, when my children were in preschool, I would do a training for the staff at their daycare about family feeding and the daycare environment. I would ask, "How many people here were forced to eat green beans as a child?" And they'd raise their hand. Then I'd ask, "How many of you eat green beans now?" And none of the people who were forced to eat green beans as a child ate green beans as an adult.
So maybe you can get it in at this meal, but if we zoom out, are you teaching them to eat green beans long-term?
Elizabeth (03:57)
Exactly. And I think the pressure now is so intense for people to try to get their kids to eat. What is it? There are messages that kids are supposed to try 100 foods within a certain amount of time? That just feels so overwhelming for the parent to try to make that happen, and overwhelming for the child to be presented with that many different tastes and textures.
Yeah, I do feel like there's so much pressure to try new foods, and the pressure is often very, very subtle.
Anna (04:31)
Right, very, very true.
Elizabeth (04:44)
You know, and I'm not laughing because it's funny. I'm laughing because it's problematic.
Anna (04:50)
Right, so true.
I was thinking another thing that is not the parent's job is deciding the portion of what a child should eat; whether making them eat up to a certain portion or keeping them below a certain amount. That is not your job to control. Let's take that off people's shoulders as we have this discussion.
Yeah, it's all beat into our heads like you're saying.
Elizabeth (05:16)
It is over and over and over. And, you know, the deciding on the portions that your child must eat falls under controlling your child's weight. If a person is worried about how much their child is eating or how little their child is eating, that falls under feeling like they have to control their child's weight.
It all falls under fear of weight gain.
Anna (05:42)
True. That's true.
Elizabeth (05:44)
And kids are supposed to be gaining weight.
Anna (05:46)
Yes, yes, I feel like that's such an important part. And they gain in different ways, they gain in different rates. Really a big part of what we talk about is maintaining that feeding relationship, that trust in your child and their body.
Elizabeth (06:02)
And all of these roles that aren't a parent's role interfere with that.
Anna (06:07)
Right. And it honestly makes me sad that parents are told that all the time because it creates this constant worry in their head of, "Am I doing a good job? Am I doing a good job?" Right. So we're here to tell you: You're doing a good job.
Elizabeth (06:22)
Yes, you are.
Anna (06:28)
To the parents listening: What is your job? What do I have control over? How can I support my child in being a competent eater as they grow up? And then what is my child's job? What do I need to let them learn — like any other developmental task.
Elizabeth (06:43)
Yeah, you want to jump in and talk about the Division of Responsibility first?
Anna (06:49)
That sounds great. That sounds great. You know, there are lots of models out there. There's lots of great research about feeding children. Something that has been around for a long time is the Division of Responsibility in Feeding, Ellyn Satter's Division of Responsibility in Feeding, which really explicitly lays out what are the parents' jobs, what are the children's jobs. And so the parents' jobs, per the Division of Responsibility, is to decide: When, what, and where. When it's time to eat, what is served at that eating time, and where are you going to eat it?
So for example, it's breakfast, we're going to have toast and eggs and fruit, and we're going to sit at the table, and the parent says, "Come to the table.” The when is now.
And then DOR, Division of Responsibility, lays out: The child's job is to decide if and how much. So are they gonna eat the eggs? Are they gonna eat toast? Are they gonna eat a little bit of some of it? How much are they gonna eat? Are they gonna eat all the fruit and then have a little bit more fruit? What is that gonna look like?
But once you've put that food in front of your child, we encourage parents to take a deep breath and be like, "Okay, I've done my role. I've created this structure."
We find this super grounding and helpful to people. And, a lot of questions come up with DOR: What about this situation? What about that situation? I've had parents come to me in my practice and say, "Well, I tried that.” That didn't quote-unquote work. You know, what does that mean? And so I think that's where we can start to have a conversation about responsive feeding.
Elizabeth (08:31)
Yes, because Division of Responsibility—or DOR as it's called—none of these is perfect and none of these is a one-size-fits-all.
Anna (08:41)
Exactly right. Every child is different, every child's temperament is different, every family is different. Even within a family, where you're born in the birth order changes the situation. So responsive feeding brings in the parent and the child really treating feeding as a conversation and responding to that particular child.
So kind of taking this nice structure of DOR and then for this child, asking: Where does it feel like pressure? Where does it feel too permissive? What does that feel like?
Elizabeth (09:22)
And every kid is different. Some kids are going to feel pressure if you put food on their plate that they don't like. Other kids may need you to do that sometimes, even though the child knows they don't have to eat that food. Sometimes they might need you to do that.
And I'll add with DOR that the explanation of DOR, that's just one piece of it. And we're not saying that by following DOR, parents can't give their kids a choice sometimes and say, "Would you like eggs or peanut butter with your toast?" Or "eggs or a seed butter with your toast?"
But DOR isn't giving kids a whole bunch of choices or making them a whole different meal.
Anna (10:07)
Right.
Elizabeth (10:09)
Am I jumping ahead?
Anna (10:10)
No, I think that's so important to say. Because then we start to get over into things being quote-unquote too permissive, where we're not holding enough structure to help them learn and try new foods.
It kind of goes back to any other thing that our child is learning, we give them support and scaffolding for them to learn the skills. And if we say, "What do you want for dinner? Pick anything," a lot of children will pick the thing they're familiar with.
Elizabeth (10:42)
Exactly. That's too big a question for kids.
Anna (10:46)
Now, if you do that every once in a while, that's fine.
Elizabeth (10:48)
And we're not saying; we're not criticizing parents for making things that they know their kids will eat or making a specific meal for their child and something else for the rest of the family. It's when it's happening on a regular basis and it's causing stress in the family and in the feeding relationship that it needs to be addressed.
Anna (11:17)
Right. That's exactly right.
So those are grounding models that we use. DOR, with using this model specific for the family, specific for that parent, what will work for this situation.
And I think it's important to note that there are some children with medical concerns, possibly they've been diagnosed with ARFID, which is avoidant/restrictive food intake disorder, and they're so limited. Maybe there's a concern with their growth and not getting enough nutrition. That would be treated as an eating disorder to ensure they're getting enough.
So we're not saying if someone has a medical diagnosis that, "Oh, do responsive feeding." In that specific situation we would treat it differently, with the hope one day we would move more towards these roles that we're talking about today.
Elizabeth (12:21)
Well, and one of the things that we've talked about, and this is something I think Virginia Sole-Smith mentioned, or came up with for lack of a better way to say it—is that the roles that aren't for parents include trying to get your kids to eat a certain way.
And one of those ways is to eat in this super uber-clean way, uber-healthy way, right? Quote-unquote. And the question she posed is: Is that why, or part of why, we see so much extreme picky eating and ARFID nowadays?
Anna (13:03)
Yeah, I just loved that question. There's a great article. Maybe we can link it in the show notes, from maybe 2015 or 2016 that she wrote about this. It was such an interesting idea. That the pressure of only feeding your child quinoa and kale, not seasoning food, not putting fat on vegetables…
Elizabeth (13:14)
…from a lot, yeah.
Anna (13:32)
…with oil and butter. Is that actually making kids more afraid of food and moving them into that more extreme picky eating? I think it's a fascinating question.
Elizabeth (13:44)
It is. So I didn't mean to get us off topic. That's not really off-topic. Maybe she'll come back and we can talk about that sometime.
Yeah. So now, how can a parent take the roles laid out in DOR and feed their child in a responsive way? Let's talk about some examples.
Anna (13:48)
That's a great question. I think this comes down to the temperament of the child and even what has been done in the past. Just yesterday, I was talking to my team of dietitians and there was a question about: Should a parent make a child sit at the table? I think the answer is different for every family.
Elizabeth (14:31)
It is.
Anna (14:31)
In general, coming to the table and sitting at the table. That's the "where" of DOR. I think is ideal. The child can sit, has a place to sit, they can at least watch their family eat. They can learn what dinner looks like. Even if they don't eat everything on the table, they interact with their family.
But if dinner and the table has become a super stressful situation and that's not a possibility, then maybe they start off not sitting at the table. The goal is eventually to get them to the table. But forcing them to sit at the table may actually increase stress and anxiety in the family, which is going to sever, or continue to sever, the feeding relationship.
This question came up with my associates. The child was eating in front of the TV when the family was at the table. So a question I asked was: I wonder if the first step is, "Let's turn the TV off." Is there a way to slowly get them…
Elizabeth (15:35)
…to integrate them. And I think about my own kids. One of mine, almost every meal when we were sitting at a table, she would get up. And it wasn't as though she left the table, but she'd get up and jump around the table or sing or say something funny, or do a little mini performance.
Anna (16:01)
I think I know who that is, Elizabeth. I have one of those at my house, yup.
Elizabeth (16:05)
Yeah. And maybe because I already knew about DOR and had experience with working with parents and helping them feed their kids, I knew enough not to try to make her sit down. Some people just don't know.
Anna (16:28)
Right. I think so many people take DOR and feel like you have to do it this one way. And I think that is never helpful advice for parenting, that there's only one way to do something. Every child is so different. Another example, and I know I've said this before on the podcast, is with some children…
Elizabeth (16:34)
Exactly.
Anna (16:53)
…and you just gave this example too, having them decide what's going on their plate can be super helpful. Them having that autonomy, whether that’s you're doing family style, a buffet, or serving from the stove. You could ask them, "Do you want broccoli? Do you want rice? Do you want chicken?"
Other children may benefit from the support of, "I'm going to put this on your plate and you decide how much; if you're going to eat it or not." One might feel like pressure to one child, but might actually be gentle support for another. It's just different for every child.
Elizabeth (17:32)
It's why it's hard to talk about this in a 20-minute podcast or social media posts, because it is so nuanced. I'll give a plug for our course, our membership. If you are someone who is struggling with the feeding relationship and meal times, the membership is a great opportunity to ask us questions live about your situation.
Anna (18:11)
Absolutely.
Any other examples? I mean, there are thousands.
Elizabeth (18:15)
There's so many.
Anna (18:16)
Another example: Maybe a child feels restricted if you're like, "This is snack, you can have nothing else. I make the decisions." But for another child, you could say, "Do you want apples and peanut butter, or cheese and crackers?" You're not saying, "Pick anything," but you're holding some structure while giving them autonomy.
Elizabeth (18:42)
And we'll say this, as kids get into middle school, some even older elementary and high school, the structure starts to fall away. That is the goal. We talk about this in another episode, but they may be choosing snacks you wouldn't choose for them. But if you're there, you can say, "Would you like some yogurt with that?" or "some nuts with those chips?"
But again, their job is to decide what they eat of what's offered, and they may turn you down. With older kids, if you're not home, you could work with them to make a list of snack ideas. They may not choose from it, and that's okay.
Anna (20:00)
Right. And like I said, that's the goal. You want to launch a young adult that knows how to eat.
Elizabeth (20:11)
Exactly. And if they do choose chips, and there's nothing wrong with chips, and they ate lunch at 11 and then chips at 4, they're going to learn by tuning into their cues. They'll notice, "Huh, that doesn't really work a lot of times."
Anna (20:42)
True.
Elizabeth (20:44)
And they can learn for themselves what works for them.
Anna (20:48)
Right.
Elizabeth (20:48)
And I firmly believe giving them autonomy trickles into all aspects of their lives.
Anna (21:02)
Non-food related, yes. Totally agree.
Elizabeth (21:08)
Because they don't get many choices.
Anna (21:09)
So true.
Elizabeth (21:13)
So I think I got us way off topic.
Anna (21:15)
No, I think it's on topic.
Elizabeth (21:19)
So, well, let's talk for a few minutes about the Sunny Side Up Feeding Framework, which is a combination of all of this.
Anna (21:27)
Yes. We created this framework to give parents a place to start when worries are swirling in their head, "I should do this, I shouldn't do this." We really lay out five points:
Support yourself in making feeding less stressful. If you're stressed, your child will feel it.
Foster a positive mealtime environment. Much of the advice parents get makes mealtimes stressful.
Trust yourself and your child. Your job is to make the meals, their job is to eat and grow.
Respond to your child's personality cues and abilities. That's the responsive piece.
Model. Parents modeling a positive relationship with food and body is vital.
Elizabeth (23:23)
All right.
Anna (23:28)
Anything else about the feeding framework? That's just a taste of it. Pun intended.
Elizabeth (23:33)
I think the way we broke it down makes it possible for parents to pick one step at a time. Start by simplifying. Ask yourself what you need at mealtimes to not feel stressed. If that means more Bare chicken nuggets. No, we're not sponsored. Then do it.
Anna (24:09)
Just Bare, if you want to pay us, that's fair.
Elizabeth (24:12)
Yes. I always want to call it Bare Naked chicken. But anyway, if simplifying means ordering groceries or prepared meals, then do it. Society tells us not to, but that's okay.
Anna (24:42)
That's important.
Elizabeth (24:44)
If it means more convenience foods, that's okay too.
Anna (24:51)
Yes. This framework can be grounding for someone stressed about feeding. Really thinking, "What are my jobs? What's in my control?"
Elizabeth (25:09)
Exactly.
Anna (25:18)
Let me share: My youngest is at a camp this week on a college campus. They get to go to the dining hall. She came home saying, "Mama, you're not going to like this. They give an award for whoever has the healthiest lunch." They're third, fourth, fifth graders. Kids were all getting corn and sweet potato wedges to "look healthy."
She told me, "I think I'm going to channel you tomorrow." She got ravioli, salad, ice cream, and a brownie. And she got the award!
Point being, we shouldn't give healthy food awards to 10-year-olds. But also, modeling matters.
Elizabeth (27:10)
Not that they should be giving awards.
Anna (27:33)
At this point she doesn’t know about protein or nutrition breakdowns. It’s just modeling.
Elizabeth (27:37)
Exactly. Kids don’t need traditional nutrition education. It’s confusing to them. Ask yourself why you feel the urge to teach it. It may be a subtle way of trying to get them to eat certain foods.
Anna (28:09)
Right.
Elizabeth (28:14)
Yeah, but I love that story.
Anna (28:18)
We’ve laughed so much about it. Thanks for letting me share.
Elizabeth (28:22)
She’s such a great kid. Love that.
All right, let’s wrap up. What’s one of the biggest pitfalls when it comes to parents trying to hold structure and stay in their lane with feeding? And what’s one thing we want parents to leave with?
Anna (28:56)
The pitfalls are when our anxiety comes in. We might become too permissive or too restrictive. If we pressure ("You have to eat broccoli") long-term it doesn’t work. If we cater too much, they don’t get exposed to new foods. Structure sits in the middle. And no one needs to be perfect.
Elizabeth (30:14)
Right. There is no perfect way to feed kids.
Anna (30:19)
That’s right.
Elizabeth (30:24)
What I want parents to take away: The most important piece is, what do you need for yourself to make this happen?
Anna (30:38)
Yes.
Elizabeth (30:43)
To set up the structure, to create the positive feeding dynamic.
Anna (30:49)
Is that simpler meals? Different seats at the table? More help from your partner? That’s a powerful question.
Elizabeth (31:02)
Thanks. All right.
Anna (31:05)
Thanks for talking to me about this.
Elizabeth (31:09)
Yes, it was a great conversation.
